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◎高三1班 胡品圭
在獲知這次訪問的對象為曾志朗副院長時，我感到相當興奮。雖然得從忙碌的作息中抽出一段不算短的時間去台北採訪，並於事後完成撰稿的工作，但每次都能從與受訪者的對話中得到許多收穫。這也是為什麼升上高三還希望繼續採訪的原因。
這次更是如此，九月十六日早上，在一聲〝What can I do for you？〞之後，身兼教育學家與心理學家身份的曾副院長，以親切的口吻和誠懇的態度，招呼我們圍坐在中央研究院副院長的接待室，耐心地與我們分享著寶貴的經驗及看法。
曾志朗博士，曾為推動教改先趨的教育部長，現任中研院副院長。由於大學主修教育心理學，跨足教育及心理學領域的研究，曾副院長對於與我們學生相關的議題花費了許多心血，並且具有獨到的見解。譬如針對數理資優生的語文學習，以及高中生分組與否等問題。
據我們了解，曾副院長生長於南部的鄉下，從小優異的表現使他成為師長眼中的希望。大學聯考放榜時，他的母親尋遍了台大榜單而不見他名字，以為落榜，還難過的哭了！其實曾副院長並沒有落榜，他考上的是政大，只是母親長期居處偏遠地區，對於外界的環境不甚熟稔。這樣的求學過程，使得他更加珍惜和上進，懂得善用資源吸取新知。
曾副院長堅持理想、積極進取的特質，是我們效法學習的榜樣。因此我認真挑選了以下五個問題，利用曾副院長有限的空檔，進行了這一段專訪。
希望各位讀者看完以下訪談問答實錄後，也能和我一樣，對自己的現在與未來，有些更深刻的體會與想法。
訪問實錄摘要
您在大學時開始接觸心理學，請問是否有特別的事件使您決定往這條路發展？
其實心理學本身是在關心一個人在演化的過程中，所形成不同的人格特質。不過在台灣的心理學研究，多集中於社會心理學的範疇，應用在變態及犯罪行為。而我本身學的是教育，需要瞭解人類學習的歷程，像是該如何有效的學習、如何專心及記憶等等。所以走上這條路一點都不意外，可以說是以心理學的機制為基礎來輔助我在教育方面的研究。
您一向很重視中學生的教育問題，請問您認為是否應該讓中學生接觸心理學或哲學性課程？
在國外的高中，心理學是一門很基礎的課程；但在台灣，高中生只有在社會學科中才有機會接觸。它的重要性是在於應用的廣泛，包含物理、化學等科學，及哲學部分。不同的是，相關的實驗無法像其他實驗一樣，在實驗室裡乾乾淨淨的做實驗；但在外面的實驗充滿了變數與挑戰性，卻可以發現人類行為和人際關係的複雜性。因此，我覺得在高中的階段，接觸心理學有助於同學在其他專業領域的學習，並且做有效的生涯規劃。
您自己可說是親身感受高中過早分組之不當影響，從您教改的堅持可以印證。然而現今高一、高二的學生仍得要做選組的決定，您認為主修人文兼習理工與主修理工兼習人文，何者的可能性較大？
不能說何者比較重要，而是人人皆應具備基礎的知識。高中的課程屬於綜合性，儘可能不要分類。然而台灣的學生因為不正常的考試壓力，不得不在高中時期分出文組或理組。過早分組使學生不能接受全面性的知識。未來會需要什麼很難說，現在儲備的知識與能力，將成為以後就業或往各方面發展的基礎。當然也沒有必要樣樣兼具，但應有自由選課的空間，而不應被剝奪學習的機會。我們培養人才的目標，不只是使其具備專業能力，更重要的是，還要同時擁有一般常識及人際溝通能力。因此我希望能漸漸調整到高三再分組。
目前一般趨勢，國內最頂尖的學生皆往醫學界發。您對這個現象的看法如何？這個現象對社會有什麼影響？
在社會發展的過程中，一定會有一段落後的時期，在那個階段，醫生普遍地擁有高度的尊嚴；然而隨著時代的進步，社會越來越趨多元化，醫生診斷與治療的技巧，是來自各方面科學知識的基礎，可以說是分工越趨精細的結果。所以現在有越來越多優秀人才從事基礎科學的研究。相對來說，成績好的學生不一定就會與病人有良好的互動。再加上現今醫生不再是唯一高收入的行業，薪水也就不是醫生吸引人的原因。反而是充滿了對這份工作的熱誠，才是許多學生想走這條路的真正原因。進步中的考試制度愈來愈能符合人性，我們希望能藉由考試，篩選出適合的人才。
許多人都有名校迷思，您認為〝名校〞代表什麼意義？名校畢業生是否確實一般程度較好，在社會上較佔優勢？又，您認為什麼才是升學選擇學校的適當考量依據？
名校就是代表分數高的學校，這樣的迷思普遍存在上一輩的傳統的觀念中。國外大學發展的歷史已經相當長久，許多並不有名的小學校都能充分的創造出自己的特色。小班小校的環境能使學生與老師充分相處，並享有較多的資源。正確的辦學目標，應是在於建立學生積極的學習態度，與培養學生普遍以及專業的知識、技能。台灣的大學尚處於新舊交替的時期，但已有一些學校積極地開創獨特的學風，不以高級的儀器設備與首屈一指的學府媲美，例如台中的東海大學長期投注於培養學生良好的氣質品德、桃園的中原大學以全人教育為教學理念等。藉著教育單位及社會的輔助，學生與家長都應瞭解每個學校可以提供哪些資源，並找出適合學生本身風格的學校，繼續發展天賦的特質。
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You may know Dr. Tzeng as the former Taiwanese Minister of Education. Tzeng, a cognitive neuropsychologist, is now at the Academia Sinica, where we paid him a visit. Tzeng began the interview by joking that he probably shouldn't say anything bad about anyone since we were taping everything he
said . He was very energetic and willing to talk, eagerly leaning forward in his chair to relate his stories and philosophies.
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Tzeng stated that many people don't understand psychology. In his time, especially in Taiwan, there was very little basic scientific
psychology. He believes psychology actually has less to do with emotions and feelings than how we interact with society and how it affects us.
Tzeng became interested in psychology through education, because the study of learning has to do with how effective different methods are and why.
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Tzeng wishes that more people could be exposed to psychology through education. He says it's important to allow students to understand the complexities of society and behavior. Although psychology may not be as precise as other sciences, psychologists are more able to see the whole of human behavior.
On a subject important to many NEHS students, the importance of prestige in selecting a university, Tzeng explains that it should be a careful personal decision. He was able to rattle off a list of smaller liberal arts schools in America, such as Antioch, Bryn Mawr, Reed, and Occidental. Among the advantages they can provide, he cited smaller classes, enthusiastic teachers, personal attention, and abundant opportunities. He still recommends a larger research university for those interested in a career in research. For example, Tzeng's own experiences include research at such universities as Penn State, UC Riverside, UC Berkeley, Ohio State, and Yale.
What follows is a partial, edited transcription from the half of our interview that was conducted in English:
In one of your speeches, you mentioned encountering racism during an interview at UT Austin. Besides your decision to go to Ohio State instead of Austin, what were your initial reactions or thoughts? Did that experience affect your later research or policies?
You have to understand the situation. We were from Taiwan and I was spending all my time in the lab. I didn't pay much attention to the culture, because it's a university town, a college town. So when I went to UT Austin, I began to feel the reality of discrimination. As an Asian, I felt shocked. Did the UT experience have any effect on me? Of course. I began to think about and read about the history, the speeches by Martin Luther King, Jr. and began to realize, yes, the discrimination's there. And I came back to Taiwan and saw a different type of discrimination. We discriminate against our aboriginal people, and that's the same thing. All this experience really gave me some good guidance for my life. When I was the Minister of Education, I sent books to the underprivileged because I thought reading was important to them; the only way you can get out of impoverished situations is if your kids can read. I went to Taitung and I met a teacher to whose school I sent three hundred books. She thanked me and said, “Without those books, I don't know how to teach them.” With books, kids can be guided to read comics, or books about people like themselves. Discrimination is very, very real. You get the underprivileged, and they tend to be looked down upon and you want to try to help them.
You are quite an accomplished person, well known far beyond the scientific world. How does it feel to know that many Taiwanese recognize your name and know who you are? What is your most interesting or embarrassing encounter as a public figure?
I spent almost two years as Minister of Education, and I think I tried to show that a man cannot be corrupted. The system had its ups and downs, and politics had its way of dealing with things. But, as a Minister making decisions to allocate money or promote certain ideas, I had to take responsibility for certain actions and decisions. I thought, maybe I will be condemned by certain sectors, but I can argue and be persuaded by the other side. But when the argument becomes irrational, I stay on my own course. It's not important to be an official, it's when you're in that position, you should do what you think is important for the people. When I'm in a cab, a lot of taxi drivers won't accept money. Even after three years, when I go to a local restaurant, usually the owner will come out with one or two dishes and say, “This is for you.” I feel embarrassed, but I feel good because I know I did what people think is right. Maybe they don't respect all my ideas, but they respect my ways. If we can get everyone to feel the same way, then we can elect good officials. But it takes time, because democratic society doesn't guarantee good Congressmen and officials. It takes time for people to recognize that THEY have the power to do it. But every time I go out and feel complimented, I really feel hope for Taiwan. People respect good deeds, and for that I'm very proud of Taiwan.
Which is more important (for present and future): Chinese or English?
English is cosmopolitan; English is worldwide. If you are in the global village, then English is one language that you should have. It is because of the intrinsic open nature of the English language, always borrowing and adopting, that new words are being created all the time. Its large vocabulary makes English one important language. But being Chinese, of course Chinese is very important to me, because it carries traditions. And there's a lot of great thought in our civilization that goes deep down into the culture and what we value. You don't learn language on the surface; you learn it to learn the culture.
Many NEHS students are aware of your work. Do you have any words of encouragement or advice for students interested in research?
You have to stay on a career path to understand it. It's not just doing something because people asked you to. For all students who want to be in research in any area, get first-hand experience. Talk to people in the lab, get an internship, and learn. Get a feel for the kinds of questions scientists ask, and think, “Hm. That's interesting. I never thought of that.” See if the way they do things is something that you're interested in doing. And that's the way to go.
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